By Thomas Eichler
Washington File Staff Writer

Washington -- The United States is determined to prevent the escape from Afghanistan of Taliban and al Qaeda leaders, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld said during a December 2 appearance on NBC's "Meet the Press."

The United States would oppose any attempts to arrange escape for the leaders, including the Taliban's Mohammad Omar, the Defense Secretary said.

Rumsfeld noted that the 1,500 to 2,000 U.S. troops on the ground in Afghanistan cannot physically control the country. "So what we have to do is constantly work with ... opposition leaders, so that they understand how determined we are that those senior Taliban and senior al-Qaida leaders are not released and that the foreigners are not released to go destabilize another country," he said.

Rumsfeld said he hopes Taliban forces in the southern Afghan city of Kandahar surrender to save the city and some of their own lives. "The problem is that in most of these situations, there have been not just Afghans, but also outsiders, mostly Arab, but in some cases Pakistanis and other countries, some Chinese, some Chechens, and they tended to be the most determined and the toughest fighters. And in some cases, they have actually killed Afghan Taliban if they threatened to surrender or to defect. So it is a complicated situation. If they don't surrender, they're going to be killed."

Asked about the elaborate tunnel systems available to Taliban and al Qaeda forces in Afghanistan, Rumsfeld acknowledged that the systems were sophisticated and hard to detect. "This is serious business, and there's not one of those, there are many of those. And they have been used very effectively," he said.

He added that Afghanistan is not the only country that has such underground facilities. "Any number of countries have gone underground. The tunneling equipment that exists today is very powerful. It's dual use. It's available across the globe, and people have recognized the advantages of using underground protection for themselves."

Rumsfeld said U.S. forces are "entering a very dangerous aspect of this conflict. ... It is a confused situation in the country. The amount of real estate they have to operate on has continually been reduced; the noose is tightening. But the remaining task is a particularly dirty and unpleasant one."

Asked if gas might be used to force people out of the underground facilities, Rumsfeld noted that water was used successfully to flood caves in the campaign for Mazar-e Sharif in northern Afghanistan and force out al Qaeda fighters. "I guess one will do whatever it is necessary to do to -- if people will not surrender, then they've made their choice."

Asked about the need for a multinational peacekeeping force in Afghanistan once the fighting is ended, Rumsfeld said "That's not clear. If the forces on the ground are able to provide a stable situation, such that the humanitarian aid can get in, then there wouldn't be a need for an international peacekeeping force."

He also said that "if there is to be an international peacekeeping force, the key thing is that it be done in a way that we are free to go after the Taliban and after the al Qaeda, because that task is going to take some time."

Asked whether the United States faces "a few months of long, bloody battle," Rumsfeld replied: "Oh, I wouldn't limit it to that."

On the prospect of the United States trying terrorism suspects by military tribunal, Rumsfeld pointed to precedents for resort to such tribunals during prior U.S. military conflicts. President Bush, he said, has ordered that preparations be made for the holding of military tribunals in case of need. "He [Bush] has not designated anyone to be tried by a military commission. He may; he may not. But he may, and if he does, he wanted to get the military order out designating the secretary of defense as the person responsible so that that work could begin.

"I must say I've been interested in the press discussion and the media discussion on the subject. And I think it's been generally useful. It's elevated a lot of issues that are important and need to be considered. Some of it's been a little shrill given the fact that nobody's been designated yet to be tried by a military commission. But overall, those of us in the Department of Defense have found it useful. And we are working very hard with some very smart people all across the country out of government to try to make sure that we do this, in the event it happens, in a very measured, balanced, thoughtful way that reflects our country's values and approaches."

Rumsfeld Says U.S. Determined to Prevent Escape of Taliban, al Qaeda Leaders (Defense Secretary discusses Afghanistan campaign on "Meet the Press") (820) By Thomas Eichler Washington File Staff Writer

Washington -- The United States is determined to prevent the escape from Afghanistan of Taliban and al Qaeda leaders, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld said during a December 2 appearance on NBC's "Meet the Press."

The United States would oppose any attempts to arrange escape for the leaders, including the Taliban's Mohammad Omar, the Defense Secretary said.

Rumsfeld noted that the 1,500 to 2,000 U.S. troops on the ground in Afghanistan cannot physically control the country. "So what we have to do is constantly work with ... opposition leaders, so that they understand how determined we are that those senior Taliban and senior al-Qaida leaders are not released and that the foreigners are not released to go destabilize another country," he said.

Rumsfeld said he hopes Taliban forces in the southern Afghan city of Kandahar surrender to save the city and some of their own lives. "The problem is that in most of these situations, there have been not just Afghans, but also outsiders, mostly Arab, but in some cases Pakistanis and other countries, some Chinese, some Chechens, and they tended to be the most determined and the toughest fighters. And in some cases, they have actually killed Afghan Taliban if they threatened to surrender or to defect. So it is a complicated situation. If they don't surrender, they're going to be killed."

Asked about the elaborate tunnel systems available to Taliban and al Qaeda forces in Afghanistan, Rumsfeld acknowledged that the systems were sophisticated and hard to detect. "This is serious business, and there's not one of those, there are many of those. And they have been used very effectively," he said.

He added that Afghanistan is not the only country that has such underground facilities. "Any number of countries have gone underground. The tunneling equipment that exists today is very powerful. It's dual use. It's available across the globe, and people have recognized the advantages of using underground protection for themselves."

Rumsfeld said U.S. forces are "entering a very dangerous aspect of this conflict. ... It is a confused situation in the country. The amount of real estate they have to operate on has continually been reduced; the noose is tightening. But the remaining task is a particularly dirty and unpleasant one."

Asked if gas might be used to force people out of the underground facilities, Rumsfeld noted that water was used successfully to flood caves in the campaign for Mazar-e Sharif in northern Afghanistan and force out al Qaeda fighters. "I guess one will do whatever it is necessary to do to -- if people will not surrender, then they've made their choice."

Asked about the need for a multinational peacekeeping force in Afghanistan once the fighting is ended, Rumsfeld said "That's not clear. If the forces on the ground are able to provide a stable situation, such that the humanitarian aid can get in, then there wouldn't be a need for an international peacekeeping force."

He also said that "if there is to be an international peacekeeping force, the key thing is that it be done in a way that we are free to go after the Taliban and after the al Qaeda, because that task is going to take some time."

Asked whether the United States faces "a few months of long, bloody battle," Rumsfeld replied: "Oh, I wouldn't limit it to that."

On the prospect of the United States trying terrorism suspects by military tribunal, Rumsfeld pointed to precedents for resort to such tribunals during prior U.S. military conflicts. President Bush, he said, has ordered that preparations be made for the holding of military tribunals in case of need. "He [Bush] has not designated anyone to be tried by a military commission. He may; he may not. But he may, and if he does, he wanted to get the military order out designating the secretary of defense as the person responsible so that that work could begin.

"I must say I've been interested in the press discussion and the media discussion on the subject. And I think it's been generally useful. It's elevated a lot of issues that are important and need to be considered. Some of it's been a little shrill given the fact that nobody's been designated yet to be tried by a military commission. But overall, those of us in the Department of Defense have found it useful. And we are working very hard with some very smart people all across the country out of government to try to make sure that we do this, in the event it happens, in a very measured, balanced, thoughtful way that reflects our country's values and approaches."

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