Following is a transcript of Secretary Powell's January 9 interview with Hisham Melham of the Middle East Broadcasting Centre:

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE
Office of the Spokesman

January 9, 2002

INTERVIEW

Secretary Of State Colin L. Powell
By Hisham Melham of Middle East Broadcasting Centre

January 9, 2002

2:00 p.m. EST

QUESTION: Mr. Secretary, we really appreciate this opportunity. Sir, the war is proceeding very well apparently in Afghanistan, notwithstanding the fact that you don't -- we don't have Mullah Omar or Usama bin Laden. But let me ask you about the other war, the public diplomacy war. You have focused on it a lot and you know that you are dealing with a skeptical audience, let's say, in the Arab and the Muslim world.

Now that victory is close to being achieved, will victory speak for itself, or would you continue public diplomacy as a long-term political investment in that part of the world?

SECRETARY POWELL: No, we will continue with public diplomacy as a long-term investment, and not as a political investment, but because we believe that the audiences we are trying to reach to can benefit from knowing more about America, about America's values and what we are trying to accomplish.

This is not a campaign that we are fighting against any religion; it's against criminals, it's against terrorism. What we are doing in Afghanistan is against terrorists. Even though we haven't caught Mullah Omar or Usama bin Laden, we have essentially defeated the Taliban and we have made it much, much more difficult for al-Qaida to do anything in Afghanistan.

But al-Qaida is elsewhere in the world. We have to go after them, not just because they are a threat to America. Because they are a threat to civilization. They are a threat to all of us who believe in peace and freedom. All of us suffer from terrorism in one form or another in every country, to include the country and the region that you cover.

And so I think it is the reason that the international coalition has come together -- and all nations, nations in the West, nations in Europe, nations in the Middle East -- nations all over the world are coming together to go after this form of criminality in the world.

QUESTION: Sir, September 11th and the aftermath showed that there is, unfortunately, a huge gap sometimes in terms of perceptions and understanding between the Arab Muslim world and sometimes in the West, in the United States. That is true on the part of officialdom as well as in the media in that part of the world.

And recently we have seen your friends in Egypt and Saudi Arabia complaining because what they term as "media campaign" that was based on some leaks from government sources. Notwithstanding your assurances, is it fair to say that since September 11th a pall has been cast on this special relationship that exists between the United States and Saudi Arabia and Egypt?

SECRETARY POWELL: Not from my standpoint. No pall has been cast on our relationship with Saudi Arabia and Egypt. Both of these countries have done a splendid job in responding to the events of September 11th, and we are in very close touch with the leaders in both countries.

Now, we have a free press and they write about many things. You, I have noticed also, have a free press in your part of the world. And this is one of the things that comes along with the free press. There will be criticism. The fact that so much attention has now been directed on that part of that world when a number of the individuals came from Saudi Arabia, then a certain amount of attention should be expected.

But I can say that when you wade through all of the comments and criticism and the good statements that have been made and the bad statements that have been made, I know for a fact, and President Bush knows for a fact, that the Egyptian Government and the Saudi Government and their leaders have been strong supporters of our efforts, and the United States and the American people are deeply appreciative of their efforts.

QUESTION: Let me say that many of the criticism, by the way, in the United States is justified in the media, but that's not what you're saying. I'm saying. But, I mean, some people are saying that maybe that other changes should take place, even in the educational curricula in some of these schools, because now it's impacting not only on domestic issues but on international issues. I mean --

SECRETARY POWELL: I think this is a real issue for the countries in the region. As we go into the 21st century, every country in the world, but particularly countries in that part of the world, have to take a look as to how they are preparing their young people for the demands of the future.

And as young people are exposed to the Internet, are exposed to television, and they understand what openness is within the society and the opportunity that might exist for you, whether you are a man or a woman, then I think all countries are going to be under pressure to respond to these tensions within their society and the expectations of their young people. And each one of those countries will have to respond in their own way, consistent with their culture, their history, their tradition and their religion.

QUESTION: Sir, let me ask you about the next phase. There is a good deal of discussion that you and other senior officials are participating in as to where we go in the war against terrorism. You spoke recently about Somalia. Iraq has been prominent.

How prominent is Iraq, and how close are you to making a decision? I mean, you keep saying that we're still studying it. I don't mean to sound that everyone is acting like a Hamlet here, but talk a little bit about that next phase.

SECRETARY POWELL: Well, the fact of the matter is we are still studying it and the President's advisors have not made a recommendation to him, and he has not yet made a decision.

The one thing we are going to go after are terrorists, and those countries that provide a haven for terrorists have to be on guard. But we have not selected any country and we are not trying to pick on countries; we're trying to pick on terrorists. And we hope that as we go forward with this campaign, people will understand that we do not mean ill to Somalia or the people of Somalia.

But what we're saying to the authorities in Somalia, where there is not much authority, is that you should not let your country become a haven for terrorists who will use your country as a place to launch criminal actions against other nations. That isn't acceptable any longer. It's not just by the United States, but by the international community. With respect to Iraq, we have expressed our concern about this regime for many years. They are developing weapons of mass destruction. They have been state sponsors of terrorism. And these weapons of mass destruction, they are a great danger to the nations in the region. They are a great danger to the neighbors to Iraq, less so to the United States. And it seems to me that every nation in that part of the world should be deeply concerned that a nation such as Iraq, which is under UN sanctions, continues to test those sanctions and violate those sanctions to develop weapons that could well be used against their own neighbors, not against the United States.

QUESTION: I mean, you're right. I mean, Saddam used them against his own people and against the Iranians.

SECRETARY POWELL: Exactly.

QUESTION: And yet you still have this apprehension in the region about taking on Iraq militarily. If Saddam refuses the new restructured sanctions, the so-called smart sanctions, and refuses to allow the inspectors back in, will Iraq be exposing itself to military punishment?

SECRETARY POWELL: Well, I would not make a statement now as to what might happen in the future. The smart sanctions that I had been pushing -- and I think will come into effect later this year -- were for the purpose of easing the suffering of the people of Iraq and not letting us be blamed for any suffering that they may be undergoing. The responsibility for such suffering is Saddam Hussein and his regime, who denies his people the opportunity to live a better life. The smart sanctions will point this out more clearly. That's why he doesn't like them. He doesn't want it pointed out so clearly that he is responsible.

And there is a way to deal with this. Let the inspectors in. Prove to the world, as you have said, Mr. Saddam Hussein, that you are not developing such weapons. And the United Nations will come in and look and see whether this is true or not. Why won't he let them in? Why does he keep his people under such conditions of deprivation because he is trying to develop these weapons that will destroy innocent people? The whole world should unify. All the people in the region should not find this regime and this man characterized as heroes. They are not heroes. He is a despot and it is a despotic regime.

QUESTION: We don't have enough time. Let me jump to the Arab-Israeli arena. Sir, you seem essentially in your previous pronouncements and interviews to be coming closer to the Israeli version of what happened to the arms shipment that was intercepted. What can you tell us? What is the latest on this? Was this shipment going to the Palestinians? Was it going to Hezbollah? I mean, what is the latest based on your intelligence and your investigation?

SECRETARY POWELL: Based on the information that I have and the intelligence we have received, and more information that is being provided by the Israeli Government, it is a very serious situation. It is an escalatory situation. When you see the weapons that were being brought in, this would have taken us to a new level of violence.

I think that Chairman Arafat has to give full explanations as to what role might have been played by Palestinians in this, members of his Authority or other Palestinian groups.

QUESTION: He denied that the PA is responsible.

SECRETARY POWELL: I know. I have spoken to him, and he denies it. And I said, "Thank you for telling me of that denial, but more evidence will be forthcoming." And I encouraged the Chairman to do everything he could to look into these matters, that this was a very serious matter. The allegations are quite serious and more evidence will be forthcoming. And he needs to deal with this evidence as it comes forward because the whole world is going to be watching. Where did these weapons come from? And it appears they came from -- Iran certainly looks like a distinct possibility. Exactly where were they going, and for what purpose?

The only thing I can be sure of is the purpose was not good. The purpose was clearly to raise the level of violence in the region.

QUESTION: But I understand from what you're saying that you're implying that the weapons were going to a Palestinian party, and not necessarily to another party.

SECRETARY POWELL: It seems clear to me that they were going into the region. I can't tell you to whom exactly. I can't tell you to where because they didn't get there, thank heavens. Through an act of considerable skill, the Israelis intercepted it. But there will be information coming out as to where it originated from and where it was going and who might have been responsible. And as that information comes out, the United States and the international community can make a judgment. But right now, I think a heavy burden rests on Mr. Arafat to deal with these charges and to deal with the evidence as it comes forward.

QUESTION: Mr. Secretary, notwithstanding your positive image of the future Middle East that you articulated at Louisville, and the President also spoke of a Palestinian state and all that, there is a lingering feeling in the region, even among your friends, that the United States has been very soft on the Sharon government -- on the incursions, on the use of US weapons, on settlement activities -- and that you are not balancing your criticism of Arafat and the PA, and definitely the Hamas and the others, with criticism of what appears to be clear Israeli violations of human rights that are perceived as such by Europeans and many of your friends.

SECRETARY POWELL: I think the speech that I gave in Louisville was a comprehensive statement of our position on all of these issues, and we have spoken out against settlement activity. We have made it clear that we have a vision of a Palestinian state that will live side by side in peace with Israel. And so I think we have spoken out.

But the only way to get toward this vision is to end the violence, and when you have organizations like Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, organizations like that that simply reject the existence of the State of Israel and will continue to use violence against that state, that kind of activity must be stopped or the vision that I have, the vision that President Bush has, the vision that Chairman Arafat has and the vision that Prime Minister Sharon has, will never be reached -- two states living side by side in peace. I will not lose sight of that vision. I will continue to work for that vision and I will continue to work with both sides and do everything I can with both sides to bring them into the Mitchell plan so we can start to march toward that vision on the basis of UN Resolutions 242 and 338.

QUESTION: I know they are harassing us to finish, but let me just beg you for one final question. How come the United States doesn't speak our forcefully when Palestinian peace activists like Sari Nusseibeh -- many of your friends here know him -- Marwan Barghouti and all these people, who are fighting for peace peacefully, along sometimes with Israelis -- when they are incarcerated or roughed up or mistreated by the Israelis.

I mean, what kind of message the United States is sending to those who are seeking peace peacefully on the Arab side when people say, "Look, they condemned Hamas and violence, but also they are not defending those who share basically in the same principles that the Americans share?"

SECRETARY POWELL: I have tried to approach this in a very balanced way and to speak to both sides and to suggest to both sides that moderation should always
be our first choice with respect to actions that we take. I have spoken to the Israeli side about some of the actions they have taken that we have disapproved of, such as assassinations, and I think we have been even-handed in this.

And the reason I believe that this administration and I have been reasonably successful is that I am usually being criticized from both sides on any one day of the week. And so I will rest my case on that proposition.

QUESTION: So you must be doing a good job, huh?

SECRETARY POWELL: Well, I don't know about that. I just know that I do the best we can in trying to bring both sides to the table so that we can get a cease-fire in place, and then move through the confidence-building measures of the Mitchell plan in order to begin peace discussions. My hope is peace, and I will work with both sides. I will encourage both sides, and from time to time I will criticize both sides, as appropriate, in my desire to see this peace achieved.

QUESTION: I wanted to ask you about Hezbollah. I don't know if you can -- is there something I can just drag it a little bit? The Syrians and the Lebanese -- you have been in contact with them on Hezbollah and there is a conceptual problem. They say this is a resistance movement; you say it's a terrorist movement.

What are your expectations from the Lebanese Government on Hezbollah? Do you want them to disarm them? Do you want them to contain them? I mean --

SECRETARY POWELL: Hezbollah has claimed from time to time they are a political movement. Political movements do not -- legitimate political movements do not resort to terror. They do not resort to the killing of innocent citizens as a political means, a satisfactory political means in the 21st century.

And I think that all parties in the region will be well advised to control organizations such as Hezbollah and all the others who have not yet renounced terror and violence against innocent civilians as a means to a political objective. It's no longer acceptable in the 21st century. That is the great lesson out of the events of the 11th of September. We have to speak out against this kind of activity, all of us, and take action against this kind of activity.

QUESTION: Mr. Secretary, we appreciate it. Thanks again.

SECRETARY POWELL: Thank you.

2:20 p.m. EST

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