For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
November 17, 2003
Interview of the President by Trevor Kavanagh of "The Sun"
The Oval Office
November 14, 2003
9:31 A.M. EST
THE PRESIDENT: Have you ever been in the Oval Office before?
Q Once, just once --
THE PRESIDENT: Okay. The rug was designed by my wife. Every
President gets to design his own rug. You probably didn't know that.
Q Fabulous.
THE PRESIDENT: I wanted mine -- mine was designed by my wife,
Laura. And I wanted people to have a sense of optimism when they came
in here, that this is a guy who kind of sees a better world, not a
worse world. Sometimes the Oval can be foreboding, and I wanted it to
be cheery. So I hope you felt that.
This is called, "A Charge To Keep," it's based upon a Methodist
hymn. One of America's great imports from England was John Wesley.
And it talks about serving something greater than yourself, which
speaks to my own personal faith; as a President, it speaks to my need
to capture the spirit of America and call on people to serve. You've
probably followed some of my domestic policy, but one of the things
that's important is to call on people to serve their communities by
helping neighbors who hurt. The de Tocquevillean view of America at
that point was just, kind of, a civic fabric of loving organizations;
part of my vision, as well, is to energize them.
The paintings of Texas. That's kind of what my ranch looks like,
by a guy named Onderdonk, he's a Texas landscape artist. The blue
bonnets are not quite that big. Blair and I -- well, he's been there,
and he would recognize kind of the look, if he were here. This is West
Texas, where my wife's family was raised. We were both raised in West
Texas, but this is farther west than where I was raised. It's called
El Paso. But it's a famous Texas artist and historian who painted
that.
More Texas. The reason I have Texas up there is it's where I'm
from. And in this job if you can't figure out who you are -- you
better know who you are because of the pressures and the decision
making process and all the noise of politics and all that (inaudible).
Really quickly, this is a desk given to us by Queen Victoria. A
famous desk called the HMS Resolute, and it's wood from the Resolute.
The door was put on by Roosevelt to cover his infirmities. Out of the
door poked John Kennedy's son --
Q Oh, yes, I remember.
THE PRESIDENT: I chose to use this -- Ronald Reagan put the bottom
on to make the desk high so it won't bump your knees. I love the
desk. I love its history. It does speak to the great relationship
between America and Great Britain, I'm sitting at a desk given to our
country by Queen Victoria.
And, finally, the Churchill bust is on loan from the Brits. Tony
Blair knew I was a great admirer of Churchill, so here he sits, along
with Lincoln and Eisenhower.
That's it, welcome.
Q Fantastic. Thank you very much, Mr. President. Where would
you like me?
THE PRESIDENT: Sit right here, take Vice President Cheney's seat.
Q I'm more than a little impressed by being here and by sitting
in this seat.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you know, this is a shrine to democracy and
we treat it as such. And it's an honor to serve here.
Q Well, I would like to thank you on behalf of our readers for
giving them and me the time to talk to you.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I'm glad you're here, thanks.
Q We're a very pro-American newspaper, and our readers were
shocked and deeply moved by September the 11th. And they supported
what happened subsequently in Afghanistan, and a little more
reluctantly in Iraq, but, in fact, the majority of our readers were
behind the action.
I think what they would like to know -- we've talked with them in a
way which is quite interesting, we actually spent a weekend with about
2,000 of our readers.
THE PRESIDENT: Really? (Laughter.) Good marketing tool.
(Laughter.) That's interesting.
Q Yes. And the one question they wanted to ask you is, is the
world a safer place after the conflict than it was before?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, much safer. It's safer for a couple of
reasons. One, the free world has recognized the threat. In order to
make the world safe you've got to actually see reality. And the
reality is that there are cold-blooded killers who were trying to
intimidate, create fear, create hostility and to shape the will of the
civilized world.
And a lot of countries have seen the threat for what it is. So,
therefore, step one is recognizing the problem. Tony Blair recognizes
the problem, Jose Maria Aznar recognizes the problem, Silvio Berlusconi
recognizes the problem -- clearly, the United States recognizes the
problem, after all, the clearest indication that we were at war and
that the stakes had changed dramatically was September the 11th. After
all, we were a country which was able to sit back in our -- kind of in
our geographical posture and pick and choose where a threat might
emerge and say, we may have to deal with that or we may not deal with
it; we were pretty confident that we were protected ourselves by
oceans. That changed.
And one of my vows to the American people is I won't forget the
lessons of September the 11th, 2001.
Secondly, the world is safer because the actions we have taken will
ultimately strengthen multi-national institutions. Take the theater in
Iraq. The United Nations had recognized that Saddam Hussein was a
threat, they recognized it in not one resolution, but multiple
resolutions -- and, yet, didn't do anything about it. And, therefore,
the resolutions became weak, became just words.
And as a result of enforcing 1441, which said that you disarm or
there will be serious consequences, now when multi-national
institutions speak, hopefully, people will take them seriously. And in
order to win the war on terror, there needs to be alliance and
cooperation. Because these are killers that are capable of hiding in
societies, they're patient, they're lethal, they pop up and will
destroy. And, by the way, they don't care who they destroy. There are
no rules for these people, they will kill children just as soon as
they'll kill somebody in a military uniform.
Thirdly, the world is safer because there is a -- and, by the way,
multi-national forum doesn't necessarily mean U.N. It can also mean
collaborations, like the collaboration that's now taking place with
North Korea in dealing with Kim Jong-il, who is a threat to peace. And
now it's not just the United States dealing with Kim Jong-il, it's the
United States, China, South Korea, Japan and Russia in a collaborative
effort. Or the fine work -- the initial fine work done by the foreign
ministers of Great Britain, France and Germany in telling Iran to get
rid of its nuclear ambitions. I say "initial fine work" because the
Iranians, in the past, have had clandestine operations. And,
therefore, in order to make sure that the words that have been issued
to them are true, there must be transparency.
Fourthly, we dealt al Qaeda. We are tough on al Qaeda. Now, you
know, there are key figures still looming in caves and remote regions
of the world, but we're dismantling them. If you were to look at al
Qaeda as a business organization, middle management is no longer.
That's not to say that they're not grooming junior executives to take
over certain roles. But we're tough and we're on their trail and we're
still hunting them down. Make no mistake about it. And as a result of
dismantling al Qaeda, the world is safer.
We've also dealt with the tyrants in Afghanistan, which is an
incredibly dangerous regime -- dangerous not only to the free world
because they provided housing, training, money, safe haven -- but also
they were just tortuous and barbaric to their own people. And in Iraq,
Saddam Hussein was clearly a threat to peace. And we can argue about
the definition of "serious consequence," and I respect the debate, but
no one can justify this man's behavior to his people. We've discovered
mass graves with over 300,000 people there, rape rooms and torture
rooms. He is paying suiciders to go kill innocent Israelis. He had a
weapons program as discovered -- I promise you this is going to be a
short answer, eventually; I saw you looking at the clock, your glance
can't escape me. (Laughter.)
This is an important question. It is the question.
Q Of course, absolutely.
THE PRESIDENT: David Kay discovered a weapons program that was in
material breach of 1441. In other words, it was in violation of
precisely what the United Nations had asked him not to do. Saddam
Hussein, in 1991, it was assumed that he -- his nuclear weapons program
would be active in the out years and, in fact, the inspectors
discovered he's got nuclear ambitions, not only real and active, but
his program was a lot farther along than we thought. And had he ever
developed a nuclear weapon, had he been allowed to have a nuclear
weapon, he would have been the ultimate source of international
blackmail.
And so the removal of Saddam Hussein makes the world safer. And,
as importantly, the removal of Saddam Hussein gives the Iraqis a chance
to live in freedom, which is the ultimate -- freedom is the ultimate
route to security. I strongly believe that free nations are peaceful
nations. Free nations are not terrorist havens, do not become
terrorist havens. Free nations won't create conditions of strife and
resentment that breeds anxiety and terror.
And, therefore, the world is becoming safer, is safer and will be
even more safe when Iraq becomes free. And Iraq will be free, and
it'll be peaceful. And we need peace and freedom in that part of the
world.
Now, there's an interesting debate going on as to whether or not
people, like the Iraqis, will ever adapt the habits of freedom.
There's kind of an elitism that takes place -- in our country, in your
country and elsewhere, feels, well, certain people can't be free, they
can't adapt the habits of democracy. I strongly disagree. I strongly
disagree.
And so, yes, the world is safer and the world is more peaceful.
Q Okay. That answer will resonate with our readers.
Nonetheless, there is concern about the events, particularly in the
last week or so, when things have escalated. I think this causes
concern everywhere. Are we going to increase military presence there?
Are we going to pull out? There's a fear that --
THE PRESIDENT: You don't have to worry about us pulling out.
Q There's a famous t-shirt, slogan, which shows the American
flag and the words, "these colors don't run." Do you stand by that?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Our will is being
tested. See, the tactics of the terrorists is to kill as many innocent
people as possible and, therefore, try to shape the will of the
Iraqis. As progress is made -- and we're making interesting progress,
and I'll cite some examples in a minute that I think are fascinating.
But as the Iraqis begin to say, wait a minute, life can be better, and
their instincts kick in about what it means to live in a free society,
the terrorists want to shake that. They want to scare them. They want
the police not to become police. And we've got over 118,000 people
now, Iraqi citizens in uniform beginning to conduct operations for
their own security.
They, of course, want to kill our own soldiers, and, therefore, try
to shake the will of the American people and the President and the
command structure. They killed those Italians. And they were hoping
that Berlusconi would say, oh, my goodness, this is too big a fight,
we'll leave. We're not leaving. We're staying there to get the job
done. Of course we mourn the death of any citizen. But I recognize
that it is -- I still remember the death, what happened to us on
September the 11th, as well. I was there at Ground Zero right after
the attacks and I remember this kind of haze and the smells and the
death and destruction. I'll always remember that, of course.
And, as I've told you, I vowed not to forget the lessons.
Q That changed everything?
THE PRESIDENT: Absolutely. Look, what changed for me was sitting
on Air Force One and getting the reports that we were under attack.
And I made up my mind then, right then, that we didn't need a bunch of
legal briefs, I didn't need a bunch of -- you know, let's kind of hold
hands and hope to get the right answer -- we were at war and we were
going to win the war. And I still feel that same exact determination
today that I did then.
Q So you'll stay in Iraq even --
THE PRESIDENT: We will do our job.
Q -- after there's an interim council, a government which is --
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. There's a lot of talk right now about the
political process, as there should be. And we are interested in the
Iraqis assuming more responsibility on the political side and on the
security side. And a political process in which the Iraqis assume more
responsibility will make the security side come together quicker, as
well, in our judgment.
And, therefore, Bremer came here, he took instructions back from me
to talk to the Governing Council to find out what is feasible when it
comes to the passing of more power to the Governing Council. That's
where we are right there.
On the security side, absolutely we're there. The goal is for Iraq
to be peaceful and free. I understand the consequences of a free and
peaceful Iraq in the midst of the Middle East. We can have the debate
all day long as to whether the Middle East will ever adapt the habits
of democracy and freedom. I think they will, obviously; and I'm
confident they will. I like to tell people in this country, freedom is
not America's gift to the world, freedom is not Great Britain's gift to
the world, Freedom is the Almighty's gift to everybody in the world.
Q And this is what you'll tell the demonstrators? Or this is
what you would tell the demonstrators if you had five minutes with
them?
THE PRESIDENT: Of course I would, absolutely. I will say, you may
disagree with our tactics -- nobody likes war, war is my last choice --
if the demonstrators are there as anti-war protestors; they may be
there for other reasons, as well, global trade, and I'd be glad to talk
to them about that, as well. But in terms of war, I can understand why
people are anxious about war. I can understand why citizens in Great
Britain, protestor or not, wonders about why a President would commit
to war. Because nobody likes war.
On the other hand, I would tell them, the skeptics and the critics,
that I have a job to protect the security of the United States of
America, and that Saddam Hussein was a security risk, as witnessed by
the international community speaking loudly on that subject 12
different times. But I would tell those who doubt our policy that we
share a common goal, which is peace, and that free societies are
peaceful societies. They may say, well, you can't possibly expect a
country like Iraq to be free -- and then we'd have an interesting,
philosophical debate, because I believe freedom exists in the heart of
every single human being. It may take longer for people to accept
freedom, if they've been tortured and brutalized like Saddam Hussein
did.
Secondly, I would tell the skeptics that not only is the world more
secure as a result of the decisions we made, the Iraqi people now have
a chance to live in a society which is hopeful and optimistic, a
society in which you're able to speak your mind, a society in which you
don't have to pay homage to a brutal tyrant and his two brutal sons --
which is precisely how they had to live in the past.
Q So how do you respond to those people who were polled by the
Europe commission and found that America was alongside Iran, North
Korea is the second most powerful threat to world peace?
THE PRESIDENT: You just have to tell them watch what happens. The
world is going to be more peaceful and the free world will be more
secure as a result of the decisions we've taken.
Q Can I ask you about the special relationship, the role the
British soldiers play in Iraq and are still playing?
THE PRESIDENT: Sure.
Q Would you like to tell me about you feel about our
contribution?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I'll tell you about your troops. They are
well trained, they are well motivated and they're really good at what
they do. And our soldiers and our generals and our commanders really
appreciate being side-by-side with the Brits. They trust them, and
that's important.
Secondly, in Basra, the Brits have brought an interesting strategy
in dealing in Basra because you have dealt in Northern Ireland. In
other words, it was kind of a transfer of experience that has been
incredibly useful and important. I am really proud of our -- not only
our alliance, because it's close now and I intend to keep it that way.
I've got a great personal relationship with Tony Blair.
Let me tell you something about him just real quick, because it
relates also to the trust of the troops. He's a man who comes in here
and he says he's going to do something, and as I said -- as they say in
Texas, you can book him when he says he's going to do something, you
can take it to the bank. Because every time he has said something, he
has done it, and I appreciate that a lot. It's not always the way it
is in politics -- whether it be domestic or international politics.
Sometimes they'll come and look you in the eye and say, "Oh, don't
worry, Mr. President, we're with you and behind you," and it turns out
they're way behind you, you can't find them when the heat gets on. But
that's not the way Tony Blair is, and that's not the way the Brits'
command structure is, and that's not the way the soldiers in the field
have been. They've been tough and capable.
And decent people. That's the other thing about militaries, both
our militaries are full of compassionate people. Because not only are
we chasing down people and bringing them to justice, as we say, but
there are schools being built, orphanages being opened, hospitals being
supplied, thanks to compassionate British troops, and American troops,
as well, and other troops. It speaks to the honor of our respective
militaries, these are honorable people.
Q You're going to speak to some of the families of those who
have already died in Iraq, and also September the 11th.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
Q You're going to see them, I guess, on Downing Street.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I'm not sure exactly where, but, you bet, I
am going to see them.
Q What are you going to say to them?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I'm going to first of all ask for God's
blessings, because I understand how bad they hurt. I can't imagine
what it would be like if I were a mother or a dad to have lost a
child. I'm a proud dad, it's got to shatter a person's heart to lose a
loved one. And I will do the best I can to provide some comfort. I
have done this here in America, as well. It's part of my duty as the
leader of this country to comfort those who have sacrificed.
I'll also explain to them as best as I can that the sacrifices that
their loved one has made is for a noble cause, and that's peace and
freedom. I strongly believe that what we're doing today will make it
easier for this person's grandchild to grow up in a free world and a
peaceful world.
I'll tell you an interesting story, kind of dawned on me a while
ago. I was talking to Prime Minister Koizumi of Japan in Tokyo -- we
were having dinner, actually. And I kind of reflected on what it would
be like -- during our dinner, I reflected on what it would be like if
America and the allies hadn't done a good job in post-World War II,
would I be sitting with a Prime Minister of Japan, with whom I've got
great relations, talking about how to deal with Kim Jong-il and North
Korea? It's an interesting thought.
Q Very interesting.
THE PRESIDENT: Beyond that is whether or not somebody 50 years
from now is going to be sitting with a leader from Iraq, or any other
country in that region, saying, "Thank goodness George W. and Tony
Blair held the line, because I'm now able to deal with terrorist
threats or potential terrorist threats with an ally; I'm able to help
bring more peace to the world."
Presidents and Prime Ministers should never worry about their
short-term history, how they're viewed in short-term history. There's
no such thing as short-term history, except for the musings of somebody
who's not very objective to begin with. Because if you set big goals
and work on big items, the President or the Prime Minister won't be
around to see the effects of those policies. And, therefore, I don't
worry about the short-term history. I think in terms of long-term
history I know what we're doing now is going to have an effect, a
positive effect on this world.
Q Can I just backtrack a little?
THE PRESIDENT: Sure.
Q You were talking earlier about the contributions countries
like Britain and Italy have made and others.
THE PRESIDENT: Spain, Poland, a lot of people.
Q You didn't mention France and Germany in that -- you seem
very critical of France.
THE PRESIDENT: Look, my attitude is the past is there, it's past,
and now let's go on. I'll tell you one example of why that attitude is
important, and that is Germany's contribution in Afghanistan. And it's
a positive contribution -- more than positive, it's incredibly
helpful. They've got a number of troops there. It's the first
deployment of German troops, as I understand, outside of their soil
since World War II. It's a positive -- yes, I think that's right,
check the facts. But, anyway, it's helpful, really helpful.
Q And NATO?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, NATO is important.
Q But France is a semi-detached member of NATO --
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it's a historic role --
Q They won't be a rival --
THE PRESIDENT: I certainly hope not. See, there's no need to
rival the United States and our friends. Our goals are peace.
Q But France wants to counter.
THE PRESIDENT: You mean multi-polarity? Well, I think we need to
work against multi-polarity, and the reason why I know we need to work
against multi-polarity is a Europe working with American can do a lot
together. A united Europe working with America can do a lot together.
We can promote peace. We can fight off terror, which is necessary, and
there needs to be full cooperation in order to defeat the terrorists.
We can work on issues like global AIDS.
I'm real proud of our country's contribution to global AIDS. Just
to give you a sense of my feeling on this, we are a fortunate country.
We're prosperous -- and by the way, we're becoming more prosperous,
which is good news.
Q I'd like to ask you about that.
THE PRESIDENT: Okay. But I believe we owe a lot to the world's
peace and we owe a lot to those who suffer, because of our fortune,
because of our wealth. I'm proud of the fact that Congress has
supported my initiative to provide a large sum of money. And, as
importantly, I'm proud of our NGOs and faith-based organizations that
are willing to help provide the infrastructure so that we can get help
to beat this pandemic. We're a prosperous country, and yet in our
world an entire generation is about to be wiped out. And I feel
strongly about America's need to be involved and Europe's need to be
involved in this issue, together, just like I feel strongly we need to
provide food for the hungry, just like I feel strongly that when we see
tyranny, that we need to work for freedom.
Every situation, of course, doesn't require military action. I
just repeat -- I want your readers to know, the military is my last
choice, not my first choice. See, I understand the consequences of
war. I understand the risks of war. I understand firsthand,
particularly when I go and hug the moms and dads and brothers and
sisters and sons and daughters of those who died.
I also see the consequences of not acting, of hoping for the best
in the face of these tyrannical killers. So, therefore, our foreign
policy will be active, we'll work closely with our friends and allies,
and we're going to stay on the offensive against the terrorists.
Q Let me just ask you one quick question on the economy.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
Q It's going great guns. You're revising figures upwards. You
introduced tax cuts. You promised tax cuts, you introduced them. Is
this a message to the rest of the world, too?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I think people ought to look at pro-growth
policies and how to stimulate the entrepreneurial spirit. To me, one
of the unique qualities of our country is the individualism of our
country and the willingness of people to take risks to better
themselves. Most new jobs in America are created by small businesses,
and that's an exciting aspect of our economy, because it not only is
good economics to have the job hiring dispersed throughout society, it
also is such a hopeful part of our economy. When you think about
somebody in America can start their own business and grow it, and then
actually own something. They become the owner of this piece of
property.
Our tax policy was very effective at stimulating small business
growth, because most small businesses pay tax at the individual income
tax level. When you hear small business or small corporation, you
think, corporate tax. But in America most small businesses are sole
proprietorships or Subchapter S's, so that when we cut all rates -- not
trying to select rate cuts, but all rates -- it really affected
capital formation in the small business.
This economy, and this country, more importantly, is tough and
resilient. We've been through a lot. When I showed up here, we were
in recession. I guess we were headed into recession. But the first --
I show up -- Dick Cheney and I are here, we get sworn in, in late
January, and the first quarter of '01 is recession, or the beginnings
of a recession. And then the attacks hurt us, and we had corporate
scandals. But I think the world is beginning to see America will deal
with corporate scandals in a tough way. It doesn't matter whether
you're -- we will hold people to account. I believe, in criminal
matters, that there has to be consequences for bad behavior, and clear
consequences, and that's how you deter bad behavior. And our SEC and
our prosecutors are moving quickly.
The war affected people. But we're overcoming that. It's not only
good tax policy, but we've got to work on making sure Congress doesn't
overspend, and that's tough. But I'm holding the line. We've done
pretty good on our budget agreements, so far. We need better legal
policy. I've been pushing tort reform at the national level on class
action suits. All of which make it easier for people to kind of
calculate risk when it comes to employing capital, which is the essence
of promoting the entrepreneurial spirit.
Trade is a very important element. I'll be dealing -- real quickly
-- I'm going to take a good look at the steel issue. The International
Trade Commission made a ruling. It said our industry was being harmed
by imports. I felt I had an obligation to take that report seriously,
which I did. I imposed tariffs to see whether or not, to give the --
breathing room for the industry to restructure. I'm not analyzing the
extent to which they restructured. Having said that, I am a fierce
free trader. I believe in free trade. I know free trade is important
between America and Great Britain. And I will continue to resist any
protectionist tendencies here. In order for us to be free traders,
however, we've got to enforce the rules of free trade. And I was doing
so through the International Trade Commission's report.
Sorry I cut you off.
Q Not at all.
THE PRESIDENT: First Lady Bush is standing out there. We're
getting ready to award the National Humanities Award here.
Q Many thanks.
THE PRESIDENT: See you over there.
END 10:02 A.M. EST
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